#196 – Sales and marketing or marketing and sales? w/ Gareth Abel

 

 

Full episode transcript: 

​Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.

 

Phil: Great. Um, well, Gareth, this is a huge welcome. Um, and I, I know that we've sort of got to know each other over the last six months through the global research program we're doing initially, and then of course, as a guest on our great event that we ran at the London Stock Exchange just before Christmas.

And, uh, I've found every conversation with you. Um, you know, really fascinating and interesting to get the sort of perspective of someone with a marketing background in this world in which we operate more sales focused. Um, so it's, uh, it's a, it is a, you know, huge welcome to the Sales Transformation podcast and, uh, thank you for joining us.

Um, well that's great. So, uh, Gareth, what we normally do before we get started in, in, in the, in the sort of theme and the topic is, I wonder if you could just give a short introduction as to who you are, um, and what your sort of career progression has been since you've sort of entered the commercial world.

Gareth: Sure, of course. So thanks much for having me on. So I'm Gareth Abel. Um, I am a. A seasoned and experienced international chief marketing officer, and I specialize in delivering sustainable profit growth. My experience has predominantly been in technology businesses, and for me that means telecoms, consumer electronics and digital services.

And I've been very fortunate to do that literally all over the world. Um, I started my career. In telecoms working for Orange, um, when the business was just four years old and I spent a, a good chunk of time with that business. Um, I then moved overseas working for businesses like SLA in the Middle East and uh, also Rito, um, in Oman.

Uh, came back to the UK and had stints with Samsung and with Dixon's car phone. Uh, and then I've also been back on my travel since, um, I've worked for a mobile network operator in Brazil, uh, and then also digital services businesses, uh, in Japan and in Mexico City.

Phil: Uh, some amazing sort of international, uh, sort of background you've got.

And is it, uh, and as you were sort of describing the various countries in which you've operated in, um, how would you describe the differences in, in the sort of challenges that you faced across different parts of the globe?

Gareth: So I think the thing I'd say is that, um, I'd always wanted the opportunity to work internationally, so it was something I've always kind of leaned into.

So I looked for opportunities in order to do that. Um. And basically what I really, what I found was that once I'd worked in more than one country, or I'd operated across more than one country, one of the interesting things as a marketer is, is you try and be very market oriented and you try and understand, you know, what are the similarities or the differences between different customer types?

What do they need, how do they behave, how do you reach them, how do you influence them, et cetera. And as a result of that, once you've done it more than once. Actually, it becomes quicker and quicker and quicker in order to be able to tune in and to work out, you know, what's required in different markets.

Where I'd say there's a challenge is more on the business side, and that's to do with the, um, when you look at the, the different approaches that different, uh, that perhaps businesses in different regions tend to take. Um, it would be very simple to say, oh, you know, businesses in Western Europe are far more advanced than businesses in other parts of the world, but that's not necessarily true.

Um, what I've found is that in some parts of the world, um, so thinking about my experiences in, uh, Latin and South America, these businesses operate with very high levels of professionalism. Super quick decision making. And are very focused on going after what they need and they don't mess about with kind of supplementary things that are there for the sort of vanity reasons, so they can be particularly well focused.

So looking out into the market, it's relatively straightforward to understand the differences and the challenging part of the career is navigating the different setups and the different businesses in different countries.

Phil: Yeah. So, uh, so interesting. I know that we, um, talking about, uh, the sort of Latin Americas, I know that we had a student, um, who was on one of our early masters programs with Sony. Sony, uh, mobile when we, we worked with Sony.

Gareth: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And, um, he had, yeah, he had a particular challenge with the regulators in Columbia.

About, um, the ability to sell smartphones and because he was working with certainly that, that had a huge impact on his market. Um, but what was really interesting is rather than take the legislation as a feta accompli, he actually challenged the legislators or the telecoms authorities in Columbia, um, and managed to, to convince them that actually.

Uh, not enabling the population to buy smartphones would be detrimental, in fact to the economic, uh, development in the country. And he managed to get them to change their decision. And, uh, because he was working, you know, he is obviously working for Sony. Um, Sony was working on the basis. Regulations would be, would allow, particularly in the Christmas push.

So I, this is a bit of a tangent to our conversation, but um, certainly had sort of got stocks ready for the Christmas push, uh, which is when most of the mobile phones were being sold. And, you know, they went from the very low market share in Columbia to I. Like 2% market share in Columbia up to 7 or 8 percent in one quarter. And it was down to the sort of,

I don't know. I'm just speaking to your point about the directness, you know, the, uh, directness of that particular part of the world and the ability to make quick decisions. Uh, I think that that sort of confirms my experience, just certainly through this one student. But I'll, I'll never forget his story actually.

It is just amazing. Yes.

Gareth: That's very impressive. And, and kudos to your master's student for persevering and making that happen. I mean, I would say that in that, in that part of the world, um. There is the opportunity that when everybody is looking to grow and to develop, there is the opportunity, there is the culture to be able to push on a different door and to see how you can make something happen.

And I've not heard of an example with a regulator like that, uh, previously. Yeah, no, but, but, but, but as I say, kudos to your students. But for, for persevering.

Phil: Yes, yes. We, we referred to this as tactful audacity, you know, and he certainly had bucket loads of that. So, so he featured, uh, I don't think he came on the podcast actually.

We should invite him to, but anyway, um. I think we're, you know, we're here. In fact, this is going to be the first of a trilogy of podcasts we're gonna do on the topic of marketing. And, um, it, it, it, we, I think it's the first time we've invited a CMO to come and take part. So, so thank you for joining us. And from my experience, there's, there's always been a, a slight, a sort of, i, I wouldn't say sort of tension.

Um, I, I wouldn't say that, but a, a sort of silo almost, uh, between sales and marketing. Um, and, and sort of seeing some of the challenges that sales face, particularly through the ability of marketing to generate, you know, um, sales qualified leads and so on. Um. And so that, that, so, so I think this is a great opportunity, I think through the podcast and through interviewing you, and I know that it's gonna be a great discussion.

We're gonna have to kind of understand how marketeers particularly, well, how you think and how you, how you look at the world, the commercial world in which we're operating in. And I know that when. When we prepared for this podcast, there, there were a number of, uh, themes that we thought we could explore in the first one.

Gareth: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Is, you know, attitudes towards revenue versus attitudes towards profit. And I, I wonder if you could just talk us through some of the philosophies that you have that underpin how you think as a marketeer.

Gareth: Sure. So I suppose the key thing here is that actually it's the generation of profit, which is the actual number one objective for a commercial business.

And then generating revenue without profit isn't delivering a return on the capital that's been invested in the business, and therefore it's not attractive to shareholders or investors. So my focus as a marketer is to deliver sustainable profit growth. And that means all, it's all really all about improving a business's profitability consistently and sustainably over time.

My goal here is to ensure that you can generate regular returns to shareholders and also making the business more value increasing enterprise value. So I do this by helping businesses to identify the proper opportunity in their sector, and then deliver the capability. Enables them to harvest the profit opportunity consistently over time.

A focus on revenue is often a focus on volume. It's not a focus on value.

Phil: Right. And, and is that, you know, from your experience of working with the various organizations that you have done is, is that born out of, um, a, a focus on revenue that you think is not correct or, you know, sort of where, where, where, where does this focus on sustainable profit sort of come from?

I.

Gareth: Yeah, so I, I think having worked in, uh, certainly for the last 10 years or so, I've done a lot of work in investor backed businesses. And when you look at, you know, what a private equity fund is doing, for example, their goal is they buy it here, they look to sell it after a number of years of working their value creation magic, and then exiting here, right?

And a great way to deliver. Probably the most effective way to deliver a higher value outcome is to ensure that there has been a significant improvement in the profit that's generated, but not just as a one-off, as a result of cutting cost in a particular. You have to be able to work in a me in, in a way that enables you to be a better business that can generate more profit as a result.

So that's really the, the, the background as to why.

Phil: Okay. So you've explained, you know, the focus on profit growth, which is, I think it's kind of a no, it's a no brainer, um, to me, so I'm slightly surprised that. It could by, by, by looking, you know, by looking at the question, it's kind of inferring that some organizations really just focus on revenue and not on profit.

Um, but you've obviously seen companies sometimes look at the top line, but not spending enough attention looking at the, you know, at the bottom line. Um,

Gareth: yeah, so I, I don't, I don't wanna dig too much into a sales and marketing divide, however, no. One of the seeds I will sow. Is that, um, particularly from a sales perspective, it is much more li the sales organizations are much more likely to be focused on volume, which equals revenue as opposed to volume which equals profitability.

Phil: Yeah. When you can see that quite often in, in some of the, uh, the ways that incentive, you know, sort of schemes are organized for salespeople. So the bonuses are based on revenue, not on profit. So,

Gareth: correct.

Phil: Uh, it's gonna drive a certain behavior, just like you say. I mean, the other point, um, that confirms I think that.

Sales teams, um, focus too much on revenue. Is that, is that they, we found that they don't understand? What are the implications of simple things like. Like the effects of discounting on profitability and how much more you need to sell in order to make the same profit as you might have done before. Um, and I know that we, you know, uh, we do this sometimes with a certain degree of sort of a lighthearted comment, but, you know, we asked a simple question if, if you are operating.

Uh, in a market where you are generating 25% gross profit margin and you are asked by a customer to give a 5% discount in order to secure, um, uh, a contract, how much more would you need to sell in order to make the same gross profit as you did before? And, um, it's, uh, it's quite astonishing how many sellers.

Actually get it wrong. They don't realize how much more that they need, uh, to sell in order to make the same gross profit. So I completely agree with you in that, you know, this focus on profit is something that is really important for salespeople to understand as well as of course marketing. So, um.

Gareth: Got one

Phil: additional point.

So what's the major interest? Sorry, Gary. Sorry. Yeah,

Gareth: yeah. One additional point to, to mention there. So, so you've highlighted about the, the, the problem with discounting, actually the real profit opportunity is price. So it is the leave. There are four levers that you can pull. In order to improve, you can increase revenue, increase price, reduce fixed or variable costs, and it's been well proven.

So there's a, there's a beautiful study by the Harvard Business Review that shows how much more effective, um, increasing your price is. When you are looking to increase your level of profitability, so actually what you really want to be able to do is that you want to build a business that has pricing power, which is the ability to raise your prices without seeing a corresponding drop off in volume.

That's the real holy grail in terms of being able to drive, uh, profitability for a business, as well as keeping everything else under control. So in addition to stopping discounting. You actually want to be able to charge higher prices, uh, and make your customers very happy to pay them.

Phil: Right. How do you do that?

Gareth: Ah, so there's a, there's a number of different things that you need to do. So, so firstly, you need to make sure that the product that you are delivering its performance needs to be, you know, fantastic and unquestionable.

Phil: Yeah.

Gareth: Then the experience of using the product and interacting with your business also needs to be flawless.

In addition to that, you need to build a distinctive, so, and differentiated, uh, brand position in the mind of your target customer. Yes. So they recognize you as standing apart. From the rest of the competitors in our sector. So the combination of those three things, plus sustaining it over time are the best ingredients for, uh, enabling your business to, to, to achieve pricing power.

And that's exactly what Warren Buffet is looking for, the world's greatest investor when he's looking to invest in a business.

Phil: Yeah. I mean, it, it's interesting that, um, uh, one of the other perhaps levers, and it may, you may have touched upon it for Im improving, uh, margin is by changing the mix of. Uh, services that you sell.

Yeah.

Gareth: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Um, so, uh, so if one is looking for overall improvement at a, an, an organizational level, yes, you can increase prices or you can decrease costs and fixed costs, but you can also change the mix of services that you sell where certain services may have higher profit than than others. So the mix of business is really important and I, I'm sure that also forms part of how, uh, sort of marketing would operate in terms of looking at, you know, given you've got multiple product and services that you can sell, you know what?

Combination of product and services would also help us maximize, you know, the profit. Is that, is that, is that something you would concur with?

Gareth: So I would, but I would also take you further upstream first, so, okay. Um, when I, so I've built a, a playbook on delivering sustainable profit growth and the, and the first stage of four is the diagnosis stage.

And in that,

Phil: yeah.

Gareth: Um, you need to work out where you are in the market, you know, what does the world look like? And so what I do here is I create a segment map of the market. And so you can see where are there different groups of customers that have common needs? And then what you are doing, or what I'm doing when I'm focusing on, you know, delivering sustainable profit growth, is that I am then able to identify where are the profitable opportunities within that market.

Because if you look at, you know, any gi, any given, um, category. There will be areas where you can make more money than others. There will be customer groups who have higher usage. Um, Greater, um, elasticity or inelasticity to price.

Phil: Yeah.

Gareth: And so by identifying where the profitable opportunities are from a customer perspective, before you get into product.

Then you have the ability to say, okay, now let us work out what these profitable customers want, how we need to appeal to them. What are the right mix of value propositions? What are the right experiences that they need? So what I'm talking about is, is perhaps the other side of the coin, which perhaps needs to come first before you think about the mix that you actually.

Go to market with, it's where you identify what you are intentionally looking to be.

Phil: Yeah. No, I think that makes, uh, makes total, total, um, sense. So on the topic of, of, um. Sustainable profit growth. What sort of insights would you like to share on that, you know, particular topic? Maybe you've covered some of these insights already, but

Gareth: Yeah, so I think the, the key, the first key point I want to share is that it's really important that everybody recognizes that businesses that are well known, and these are sometimes referred to as having sort of.

Brand equity or awareness, consideration, or indeed there's a concept called mental availability, but they're all, you know, they're all referring to, are these known for something positive? Yeah. So businesses that are known by the person or persons that are making the buying decision are more likely to be bought.

So,

Phil: yeah.

Gareth: And that's a really powerful insight in terms of how humans make decisions. Our brains are bombarded by thousands and thousands of messages every day, and there are so many micro decisions that, that everybody needs to make. So we are always, as humans, our brains are there to find a short way to, to find a way to short circuit, to shortcut the decision making process.

So bringing this into commercial terms, regardless of what the sales process is, whether it's an impulse purchase, um, when you're in the supermarket or if it's a complex RFI RFP process, people that are making decisions to buy are always, always more likely to make a purchase from a business. They already know something positive about.

Phil: Right.

Gareth: So the, the implication of that is, is that any business looking to make a profit, and as we've just said, you know, um, selling a discount is negative and it's something you need to do less when you are well known. So anybody that's looking to make a profit must build and nurture its brand and its reputation so that they come to mind.

Phil: Yeah. It, it's a really, um, it's a really interesting topic and, um, I, and sort of speaking from, from my experience, you know, of Consalia and of course, uh, looking at where we want to take this sort of business moving forward. Um, we're a relatively. Small company operating, uh, in quite a niche area, um, with predominantly, uh, some pretty strong brands in our field.

And so it's been, uh, it's been an interesting journey the last sort of 10 years, you know, to, um. To answer the question, how do we, how do we build, you know, that sort of brand awareness and that that sort of, uh, brand equity, um, and it takes, it takes a long time. Um, but I think it, I mean, again, this is interesting to see what you feel, but it.

It, it, before you can build brand equity, you really need to know what your purpose is. You know, as a business you need to know, you know, um, what you know, what, you know, what your vision is. But I, I, I, I think it's, it, it get, you know, the better quality the. Development of brand equity is a strength of passion that you might have about where, where you see your particular business being in the future.

Mm-hmm. And, uh, and so it took, it is taken us a long time to recognize what that vision was. And it's changed over years slightly. Um, but once it's changed, it gave us the call to action, but then it was, how do you build. Brand awareness. Once you have defined what it, you know where it is you want to go, I'll stop and pause and, and let you reflect on that a bit.

But

Gareth: yeah, I think the, I think the, the, the, the shortcut piece of advice I would give you, which is about making sure that you can do this a bit more quickly and to make sure that it's really on point, is just thinking about what I mentioned in terms of building a segment map. So. As you, the segment map isn't just about identifying where the profit opportunities are.

In addition, you also need to be able to understand what do the different segments want, and sometimes we refer to these as the category entry points, the reasons for why somebody comes into the market in order to buy a particular product or service. And so what you want to be able to do is to identify which are the target segments that I'm going to go after, what do they want?

And then those things that they want, those category entry points, you then need to become known for them. So then everything that you do. Is in service of landing, you know, basic. Basically what we do is we build a positioning for what the business stands for. Yes. And you wanna land it in the mind of the profitable target segment.

So by being able to identify what they want and then turning that into a positioning, you then become so much more accurate. You're not guessing in terms of, in terms of what they want, you are actually making sure that you are appealing directly to their needs, which is 200 x more, more effective than, um, yeah.

Than, you know, than, than simply running activity. It still does take time. Yeah. Um, you know, I'm not saying that this is, that this is overnight. It takes Yeah. Time. It takes resources, human and financial in order to do it. Yeah. But you will, what you are looking to do here is you are looking to make sure that you are consistently executing around this positioning and then allowing it to compound over time.

And you should be measuring it by the amount of people who are coming to you organically, because that's what you want.

Phil: Yeah.

Gareth: You want people to organically, intentionally choose you, and so that's

Phil: a

Gareth: mechanism as opposed to a push.

Phil: Yeah, I know we had, uh, sort of quite a, a celebration when we closed a particularly big, uh, opportunity a couple of years ago from someone that we had no previous contact with, you know, that had done their research and they clearly, in the, in doing of the research realized. Uh, that the extensiveness of our services in this particular area, um, and the ecosystem we had built around it, um, was exactly what they were looking for.

Um, and so it was, it was a big moment, you know, to, to, and, and, and normally when you are, and, and it was a competitive bid as well. And normally when you're competing. for these major bids, um, the chances of winning them are quite small. You know, uh, be if you, if you're not, if you don't have a personal connection with the company who's, who's put the bid, you know, they may have an incumbent provider.

Um. And so we, yeah, it was just very interesting. So yeah, completely co We decided to compete because of the way they approached us, and we had a very happy result. And so that, that, you know. Kudos to our marketing team, you know, for having, you know, all of the hard work that we'd been doing over the years, and this was, this was a big moment for us.

And where, where, you know, where we realized the importance of marketing in sort of creating that to the brand. Congrat, you showed what's Well, it is, but I, I do know it takes a lot of courage to persevere when you're not seeing immediate results. Because it essentially, we're starting from really ground zero, you know, and, and, and building up a brand from, you know, sort of not being known to, to getting known enough for companies to notice us and, and sort of.

And, and that I find as, as someone who's got limited funds to spend on marketing, um, not knowing, you know, what's working wasn't what isn't across all the different activities of marketing. Um, it, I think it takes a lot of courage to sometimes persevere when it's taking so long. I

Gareth: agree. I agree that it does.

Um, but I want to share a quote and, and one additional point. So, so yeah, the, the, the quote is, and um, please forgive me listeners if you've heard this a hundred times, but you know, there's the question, you know, when should you plant a tree? So the answer is, 20 years ago, that's the best time to have planted a tree.

Yeah. Um, but actually what's the next best time to plant it? Well, it's today. And so

Phil: yeah,

Gareth: what you are looking to do is you are looking to build. That reputation, that capability, the magnet that attracts people to you organically and with intention. they are easier to convert and they will pay more money.

So,

Phil: yeah.

Gareth: Um, any business that wants to be more profitable needs to adopt a methodology that does this, this is well proven. That's what, that's how it works. But I do genuinely recognize the, the courage that is required when you don't have unlimited resources. And so the, the critical component then is about the approach that you take.

So then you need to, then you need to be really honed in on, you know, what are the key, key things that we want to do? What can we own? What is difficult for our competitors to do? And then let's us focus on that consistently. So it's not something you can do, you know, this year and not yet and not next.

It's something you need to plant and then nurture consistently over time.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, so I'm just going over some of the questions we, we've prepared Gar and, and, uh, you've certainly given, you know, a lot of insights around the importance of understanding your sort of market segments, really understanding, being sort of.

Uh, sort of focused on analyzing what it is your key market is looking for the, you know, the customer perspective and, and sort of working back from that. Um, are there any more insights that you'd like to share on that particular, you know, topic? Um, before I move into questions around sort of. You know, how do you balance the commercial el uh, you know, efforts of, of, of, of the organization to achieve, you know, the sustainable profit goals?

Gareth: So I can, there's a good segue here. So there's a final insight to really share. Um, and this is the typically 95% of your potential target customers aren't in the market right now. Only 5% of them are. So this is called the 95 5 rule. So you need need to really be thinking about how do you organize to, uh, to make sure that you lean in intentionally to this.

And so this is how our business should really be thinking about how it balances its commercial efforts. And when I say commercial, actually, I mean the combination of your sales and marketing resources, your, your people. Your tools, your finances, in order, in order to do that. So this concept of understanding, um, who's in market right now and who is going to be in the market in the future is a really critical thing for a commercial organization to get its head around.

Because when I look at, at the commercial organization. Actually, they've got two main jobs bearing this in mind. So the first one is, is about the ensuring the creation of future demand. And that's what you do, right? By building this brand equity or mental availability with the target audience you're going after, that's the 95.

You want to make sure that your business is already on the customer's mental shortlist for when they come into the market to buy. Secondly, and equally as important is then, right now converting demand from the five who are in market today. So you need to make sure that, that this understanding of some people are in the market, but the vast, vast majority or not.

So I need to, I'm just not that I've landed mental availability. Of my business with that target audience. So when they are, they are so much easier to convert.

Phil: Yeah, a hundred percent. Uh, uh, sort of agree with that. And I think, you know, even once, you know, when you've got sort of regular customers that you deal with, they go, they go through their own sort of buying cycles and yeah, they may not be in the market for three or four years, but you know, you can't not keep.

Present, you know, and I know there's been a lot of focus around things like account based marketing and uh, and, and so on, which you, you may want to talk about. But, um, it's sometimes it, it's sometimes difficult when you looking at this from a sales angle to kind, if you're looking after quite a, a lot of customers, you know, some salespeople have.

60 clients that they're sort of looking after. Uh, some of these may have been very large clients in the past, but they're not buying at the moment. Um, so how do you keep your brand in front of all of these customers such that. Like you say, you are in front of mind when they are ready, you know, to buy.

Mm-hmm. And that, that in itself takes quite a lot of understanding who the key stakeholders are, you know, in those key accounts. And having a, I guess, a sustainable kind of program that may not be sales led, it could be marketing led, you know, to keep your brand in front of the stakeholders so that you know, they, they'll remember you.

Gareth: Yeah, I mean, I, I definitely agree with that. Look, the, the key way I think about this, and it's a very, very sort of simple reframe in terms of the Yeah. Uh, this concept of sales and marketing. So actually,

Phil: yeah.

Gareth: My recommendation is, is, is that we reverse it to marketing and sales.

Phil: Yes. Marketing and sales.

Gareth: Not

sales and marketing, but marketing and sales.

Phil: It's, it's logical, isn't it? Because it needs to start with marketing and, and finish with sales.

Gareth: Yeah. Look, I, look, I can be pretty brutal and say in many situations, if you were using your salespeople to keep your business and your brand, in the mind of your target customer, and they're not buying, it's a very, um, expensive and therefore, and often ineffective way.

To in order to do this. So you should, there are lots of different channels that you can use in order to make this work. And, and actually businesses that have the types of relationships where account-based marketing is, um, is well used, you know, they can be very effective operating like that. But

Phil: yeah,

Gareth: you really should think about, okay, we've got these two jobs to do.

So, you know, the, the creation of that mental imprint so that you are always top of mind. For when you come into the market, you know that, that, that is, um, based on traditional definition, that would be a marketing role. Um, in order to, do so. And you've got to make sure that, um, you know, you are seeding those hooks into the mind of the customer so that when they are coming into the market, that actually your equally well organized conversion engine.

You know, which could be Your direct sales force. It could be your distribution channels, it could be e-commerce, you know, the, the use of performance marketing. In order to do that, they need to be, they need to be partnering together so that the, the, the hooks that are there can be,

Phil: yeah.

Gareth: There to you.

You can immediately convert, you can pull the fish out of the water and turn it into profitable revenue. so really sales and marketing should be called marketing and sales.

Phil: Marketing and sales. So, uh, so that may be addresses the, you know, how should you organize yourselves as the company, you know, to, uh, sort of implement this.

You know, step number one is, is talk about marketing and sales, not sales and marketing.

Gareth: Yeah.

Phil: So, so

Gareth: it's really, it's really 95 5 rule, right? So it's really about understanding. We, we, we know that we need, we know that we need to be known. And we know that 95% of the market isn't in the market. 95% of the, um, profitable audience isn't in market right now.

Yeah. Yeah. So we need to appeal to them and make sure that we are, um, on their mental shortlist. And then when they do come, then we need to make sure that we are ready to convert all of that good effort we put in upstream.

Phil: Yes. Okay. Um, so is there any advice that you would like to give organizations on how to sort of implement the approach that you've been talking about?

Gareth: So, I think the first thing is, is that you've, you've really got to do your due diligence. Um, yeah. As a, as a leader. In terms of terms, what, what really works? So, you know, when people ask me for, you know, for, for recommendations, for, for books and so on, I always recommend, first of all, you should read Mindset by Carol Dweck.

So this concept of, you know, continually, continually being open to learn. Businesses are very, very busy places, and the number of people that don't, uh, take time to do more than, you know, what it takes in order to survive their, their working day, you know, is a challenge for organizations not getting better.

Phil: Yeah.

Gareth: So, you know, the principles that we've been talking about today are now, are now well proven. And, uh, are some of the principles of, of, of commercial science. So it's important that organizations are really thinking about, you know, what does it actually take in order to be properly successful? Yeah.

And, and if you've read mindset and you've decided, yeah, actually I am prepared to take on board, you know, external thought and advice, which perhaps isn't something I've, I've done in my very narrow track over the last 10, 20 years of my career. Then you have the opportunity to say, aha. Okay, so maybe that is a different Yeah, better.

And what we've been discussing is a proven approach in order to, yeah. In order to make this happen. So that's what I would do first, and then I would be looking at, so what are, what are the simple principles that, that we should be looking to implement? So, right. You know, you should be doing it. You should be looking at doing a diagnosis.

Really thinking about, yeah. Okay. Are we crystal clear? About the whole market landscape. Are we crystal clear about what do different types of customers actually want? And are we crystal clear on the different profit opportunities for them in terms of, you know, what we can earn and indeed what it will cost in order to, in order to, to do that.

Bringing that to life is a really powerful. Um, exercise, um, for any business. And actually, if you find your commercial leadership working effectively with your finance and potentially your, um, in some organizations, your, your technical product leadership in order to really understand this, then you can really unlock, uh, a better way of working that's going to be more sustainably successful over time.

Phil: Is it, is it your experience that, um, organizations don't do enough of that kind of analysis?

Gareth: So my experience is that it's, it's often unusual for businesses to do this. They find it very, very challenging to step back and to properly criticize themselves. And it often takes a very significant change. So, you know, a business coming off the rails or maybe a, uh, a new leader that's brought in for a particular reason, uh, change of investment or something like that, which, um, which forces something to be reconsidered.

And then you have the, you know, the, the, what does it take? In order to bring, you know, in order to bring businesses along, it's why I'm a, I'm a real advocate of continuous professional training, uh, with, so whether that's, you know, from a, from a sales perspective with organizations like yourself or, you know, as a marketer or in other business functions, I think it's absolutely gold.

If, um, if your key team members are continuing to develop and are able to bring an external perspective because there is very little time, um, within an organization that's usually operating under pressure and at pace to take a moment to be able to be able to do that.

Phil: Yeah, that's interesting. Um, so.

There's a lot of comment on efficiency in the business media. Um, what's your, what's your take on that commentary, Gareth?

Gareth: So, efficiency or executing without waste is always going to be important. I'd never recommend, you know, deliberately trying to be inefficient. However, when looking specifically at commercial activity, I would really advocate, yeah.

Um, being focused on effectiveness first, you must ensure what you are doing actually delivers the, the end impact you're looking for, and then you can find ways to, to, to squeeze out efficiency from it.

Phil: Yeah.

Gareth: If you focus on efficiency only, you will only allocate your resources on the short term KPIs that deliver efficiency.

Not the effective outcomes that you really want. And so you tend to over rely on this, particularly in commercial organizations. Um, they tend to farm in, uh, low quality, low value, um, high turnover segments of the market. Um, where it's really difficult to, uh, to reach a point where there is sustainable value.

And this is one of those things where you've got to lean in to, uh, you know, to the reality that is out there, which actually working for the long term building what we've been talking about, you know, that mental availability, making sure you come to mind around the key things that customers actually want, that you can deliver and that your competition finds difficult.

Um, is absolutely critical. So efficiency is important for sure, but in the commercial world, it's effectiveness first and then efficiency.

Phil: Yeah. Do, do you have a point of view on the role that artificial intelligence is having now in, in this sort of domain of tools that might be available in the marketplace?

Gareth: So there's such a broad spectrum. For, for where you can use AI with within your business? Um, where I've seen it used, um, in the most effective way, it's, there are, so, there are so many different use cases, but it's when there, there's a combination of where it can give you, uh, structure or understanding.

More quickly than a traditional approach. So, for example, uh, some of the use of, uh, AI for, uh, market research using synthetic data that can be really, really effective. You can get, you know, 95% the same outcome at a fraction of a cost. At in a fraction of the time, which can be really, really powerful. And also in terms of the way that you can go around creating, um, structure in terms of the way that you might go about, um, executing something can be super, super powerful.

Um, I think the critical part with AI is that as an organization, you've really gotta, you've gotta recognize that it can touch so many different parts of the business. You need to think about. Where are the right places, um, to start to pilot trial and adopt, um, technology in different ways and then what your rules and governance are around it.

Um, yesterday I went to an event actually, and, and they had a, they had a speaker from a, um, a business in the wellness industry and they seem to have a very sophisticated approach where they had created a centralized team. That was being effectively funded to deliver, um, AI capability across their entire organization.

But I've seen businesses that are, you know, that are throwing, you know, 20, 30, 40% of their resources at this. Um, and so they're focusing purely on the gold rush and the glitter about it. What this business yesterday was doing was taking a very practical approach. And saying, okay, we are, we recognize that this, that this technology is transformational.

We understand that it will, um, it'll add value in different areas of our business at different times and in different ways. So we are committing to it. We are creating, um, the capability to be deployed across the organization. We are sponsoring it at the leadership level, and we are supporting it with resources.

But it's not the only thing that we are doing. And so they are, they were very transparent about where it's working really well for them and the areas where it's not, and areas that they will stop and then they will, and they will start focusing in in other areas.

Phil: Yeah, we had a, a very, uh, very interesting at the event, as you know, we had, um, professor Julian Birkinshaw talking about, um, ai, and I'm not sure if you were there when he was, he was talking, but, uh, uh, and, uh, and it was, uh, it was very interesting to, to to hear him share something similar perhaps to how the wellness, you know.

Company just mentioned, or ai, uh, the moment, the organizational benefits of AI have not been certainly academically, um, assessed and qualified. They're not too many use cases now where it's, it, it, it, it. It's, uh, has had a huge impact and a measurable impact on ROI, but at, at a personal productivity level, yeah.

They're massive areas, like you've also mentioned where

Gareth: mm-hmm.

Phil: AI tools can help improve productivity, but I think I, I, everyone knows that there will be use cases of, um, significant value through various initiatives that are probably now. Sort of being worked on. But um, for sure in the sales and marketing era, I think we're seeing a lot of, uh, very positive uses of AI to sort of manage the end-to-end sales process.

You know, whether it's from. Sort of marketing led initiatives or sales led led initiatives. It's, um, I'm quite excited about the potential, um, for the future in that area. Okay. So yes, it can certainly help upon efficiency, how effective, I think maybe, uh, a bit more time is required. But, uh, coming back to your, your stressing the differences between those two words, uh, of earlier on, um.

Great. Well, I, I don't know if there's anything you would like, you know, towards sort of finishing the podcast, Gareth, there. Uh, you know, uh, it, you know, what are the key takeaways do you think that you would like to leave our listeners with when it comes to looking at this whole topic of marketing and, and sales?

Given most of the listeners to the podcast channel are, are gonna have a sales orientation.

Gareth: So I think the key, the the most important thing I can leave that the listeners with is that actually any ambitious and highly effective sales leader should be absolutely demanding that their business is taking care of the 95% of people who are not in the market today.

Because the way for a sales leader to be so much more successful is to ensure,

Phil: yeah.

Gareth: That their, their business, their brand, their value proposition is top of mind with the target audience when it comes. So they should be demanding that

Phil: yeah,

Gareth: there is, um, suitable investment in building brand equity and in the understanding of what it takes in order to understand the market.

Land what they want land, the, the, um, the key benefits, uh, the key things that they're looking for in the mind of that target audience. And then they are able to connect with it in order to, uh, convert customers as and when they come into the market. So that, I would say that is, that is the most critical thing.

Phil: I think that's brilliant, uh, comment you've made actually on that point, because I, I just know most sales leaders are not focused on the 95. They're, they're focused on the, on the five, you know, they, they don't think about the 95 as you've just described it, but I, I think that's a great, uh, great takeaway.

Um,

Gareth: you shouldn't, you shouldn't, you shouldn't start from zero every day, week, or month. As a salesperson.

Phil: Yeah.

Gareth: You wanna start from Yeah. Actually all of these people are already considering me. My business. Yeah, my brand, my value proposition. And yeah, it just makes it so much easier. And it's not just easier to convert.

It means you are Yeah. Much, so much more profitable in order, in order to do it. So, yeah. Yes. Um, let's reframe this as marketing and sales. And let's have the salespeople really, really leaning into understanding the importance of being known. Addressing the 95. Right. Um, and then converting. And then converting as they come into market.

Phil: Yes. I'm sure our, our head of marketing will completely, um, agree with you and, and, uh, uh, with your comments as well. 'cause I, I, I, I know that when Eddie joined us, he, he took us on this particular journey. 'cause we're quite new to marketing, you know, a number of years ago. And, uh, and, you know, it, it was very much I think sharing some of the thoughts that, um, that you've shared, but.

As, as the CEO of the company, you are always wrestling with budgets and you're always wrestling with, you know, the business requirements and that word courage. You know, it does take, you know, it does take, um, patience and it, it, it takes a clear vision, I would say.

Gareth: Mm-hmm.

Phil: About what you're trying to do. Um.

Uh, and I belief that it, it's the right, yeah, it's the right investment to be making in these sort of marketing led initiatives, um, which may not certain

Gareth: derisk by following the right approach. That's, and that's the critical thing for, for you and for other businesses that, that are apprehensive and are only dealing in the five, not the 95

Phil: Yeah.

Gareth: Is to, is to really think about, so what's the approach I should take? So this was the point around building the segment map, identifying where you want to go, building that very tight positioning, and then committing it with some really clear KPIs, which is around, you know, people choosing you organically.

That's what you're looking to drive.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Well, Gar, thanks so much for joining us on this, uh, podcast as being the first of the My pleasure, uh, trilogy. My, um, it's been fantastic. I've always enjoyed the conversations we had and, and, and I know that you've mentioned some of these points before, but, uh, the, the repetition of these points actually is really helpful.

Um, and it's, uh, I, I'm sure that, um, our listeners are going to find it, uh. Really interesting as well. So thank you Gareth for taking part.

Gareth: My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me on.

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